View Full Version : Balaning heroes in PvP

11-26-2016, 09:31 PM
In my opinion some heroes in PL are "broken". Here are my examples of how "broken" hero works:

1. Hero is too OP or have too big synergy with other heroes/hero. Examples:
- Krys before nerf
- Drall before nerf
- Blue wall (Tai/Krys/Mori/Roku) synergy before nerf (often they entered and it was OTK, sometimes I was able to finish game in 2nd turn)
- Bugged Kane synergy
- Rey (2-3 turns and other heroes are invincible)

Main point that type of heroes are broken is that if player with them got lucky enough to charge them fast, then he will most often win, because he either spam you with Krys (pre-nerf) for 1k hp in 2 turns, or one shot your heroes with Drall (pre-nerf) or makes your heroes take -90% dmg. You sometimes need to be good when you want that much activations of heroes in short time, but still if someone is lucky he can do this and opponent cannot react much for it. Also some of them are just unstable like gambling, you either go for OTK combo or you lose. Your winning and losing shouldn't depend on one OTK lucky turn but on overall playing in whole match.

2. He got OP ability, then he is useless or is too situational. Examples:
- Karg
- Harron
- Ku-luo
- Wakai
- Jasser
- Liu

Problem here is that kind of heroes will either destroy some of your heroes with (or almost) one shot or don't do much or do absolutely nothing. Players with that heroes can most of times either only win by surprise (Wakai, Jasser) or by one shotting key hero (Karg, Harron). Its kinda wrong that Karg or Harron will one shot your hero and you cannot react much to it, then they are 90% of time useless. Or Wakai, Jasser, Ku-luo, they win only by surprise, and after enemy knows that you got them in build (usually after 1st game) he will absolutely nullify their effect. I sometimes lose low ELO person because they win only by surprising me with heroes like Wakai or Jasser. They are not good players, just happens they win by surprise. For me its completely wrong concept.

3. Hero got RNG ability that makes him either OP or useless. I will define him as too much RNG dependant. Examples:
- Kiit
- Hiru
- Hurron

That game have too much RNG already and addition with heroes like that are making it even worse. Main problem here is that you can be really god player and your RNG heroes doesn't hit so you lose or you can be terrible player and your RNG often hits and you win. Win or lose only by luck. Its so bad and lot of people hate it.

Ok so what now? I will give some propositions about improving some aspects of that heroes.

a) In my opinion some heroes cannot be balanced about increasing or decreasing value of their activation ability. It will be either too good or too bad. I think solution for them is adding them battlecry/deathrattle/passive which will add something interesting for strategy and you would need to use it with brain, not brainlessly spam it if you are lucky enough or count or RNG. Pretty good example here is Saru, if he would have only his activation ability, he wouldn't be interesting, but with battlecry +1 move and deathrattle bombs you can play around it.

I will give example how to handle that for Rey: make his current ability battlecry so he will give shield for 50% (less or more, you decide but I proposed something more than 1 current activation but less than 2-3) and make his activated ability protection from next attack (dmg will be completely nullified) for random hero/heroes with least hp/all your heroes.

In that way you will get hero which:
- is more interesting (got 2 effect instead of 1)
- will protect from most of non-buffed enemy one shot heroes like falkar
- won't stack % of dmg reduction to infinity
- will need to be used with at least 1/4 of brain (your protection from next attack can be broken by simple 5 hp unit dmg, so you want protect hero by another mostly)

That is just example, you can invent something else. But for Rey imo he will either suck or be too good in specific builds when you try balancing only his % shield.

b) Make huge RNG heroes less dmg but less RNG so that would make them more stable or don't give them RNG at all.

Hurron - reduce his damage but also reduce his RNG, lets say board is divided for four 3x3 square. He will choose random square then from it he will go clockwise to another 3x3 square in next use. Next use another 3x3 square. He will loop that way after first use. Or just let him start from fixed square (1,1 coords).

Kiit - he currently can hit five combinations of 2 rows: (1,2) (2,3) (3,4) (4,5) (5,6)
You can change him to start from (1,2) or random, then he will go down to (2,3) or whatever was first, then repeat. You can reduce or increase his damage that way (it will be easier to dodge with moving heroes in some cases).

In that way you will get heroes:
- is more stable and not much RNG dependent so less wins/loses by pure luck, more with planning and skill (I know, its still not perfect solution), heroes won't get one shotted here only by RNG

c) Make situational heroes do something more.

Jasser (proposed be Xerx in other thread) - lower his dmg and make his activation higher but make his activation ability do another thing like if he hits spots with no heroes they are unusable until next turn.

Wakai (I took pattern also from Xerks) - lower his damage, but units he destroys by his ability will cost opponent not 5 life but more, like 20 (so 120 damage if he destroys all last row units, might be less tho)

In that way you will get heroes:
- won't win much by simple surprises
- will be usable even if no enemy heroes in spots they hit

d) Give additional FREE move or moves (I proposed 1 free move horizontal, 2 free moves vertical) for heroes like Karg/Harron/Konil/Horis etc. (most of heroes with frontal line ability), but lower they damage. Free move is also Xerks idea.

In that way you will get heroes:
- heroes that won't one shot your heroes but if left alone will destroy your team in few turns
- they might not be situational anymore but worth playing

There is much more to think of or change. My examples are ONLY examples, I am not proposing change Rey to exact my proposition or I will leave game. It is just to make a point. And main points here are:
- you shouldn't win by RNG
- you shouldn't OTK, opponent need to react
- your heroes buffs/debuffs shouldn't stack to infinity and game shouldn't last 30 min because of wall vs wall
- you shouldn't have only PvE heroes like Wakai which are useless in PvP or you lose with them only once by surprise
- you should use BRAIN and TACTIC, no brainlessly put hero anytime anywhere and he will one shot enemy (btw I am not counting here Falkar because he is doing less dmg compared to Harron/Karg on 2 square heroes and he is also useful and can be played with because he is targeting lowest life hero, he can be then countered with Rey ability from my proposition)

Manuel Chu
11-26-2016, 10:41 PM
Too long rav this time but agree.some heroes are too op.and some useless after firts use . kobojo should fix rgn in game

11-27-2016, 02:13 AM
I'm against free moves for Karg, Horis, etc. They would be way too OP. You may want to give them a battle cry/death rattle but no free moves.

I am esp. against this with Horis. I don't know about other people but I do hide my hero behind another hero esp if I'm using Torr. Since he needs to be in the front row, Might as well put Falkar behind him to avoid sliding, Masha behind him to accumulate damage and keep her HP high. Horis is doing damage on both of them. If he's not activated twice (killing my heroes), I will usually move one hero out of the way to avoid double death. He gets a free move to hunt me down? No. Way OP.

Karg as well, if he comes out he's killing any two tile horizontal heroes you have.

Not to mention I don't think they have a way (at the current moment) to keep track of a single hero's movements horizontal/vertical (I don't think it's an easy task, since changing heroes in PvE isn't easy). So it's just +1 move like Saru. If I have Konil, Saru, Horis. That's 6 moves. Pretty sure in that time I'm activating my heroes multiple times.

11-27-2016, 07:47 AM
Hi Everyone! Thanks Rav for posting. This only means you are concerned with the game and i hoping to help improve it more better. I think I agree on balancing the heroes by properly analyzing and giving each heroes, either warcry, death rattle and passive abilities. This does not mean all positive abilities, could also be negative in order to balance a hero.

Let us say Karg since, @Meo find it not good passive ability that he can have one free move every turn, in which she might be correct. Since he don't give another example on how Karg can be improve by a passive ability i can give another example of how can he be more effective. How about if he doesn't hit a hero and instead hit a unit, the color unit he destroy will give +10 invocation/activation each to color he destroy to ally heroes. example if Karg destroy a green and a yellow unit - it will give +10 invocaton / activation green and yellow ally hero. This is just an example and my opinion of what Rav might meant to this thread.

Let us all help KBJ by pouring some ideas instead of only commenting on the Opinions other might give. Its okey to give comments but its more okey to give comments as well as ideas on how to improve it instead.

My opinion are:

Karg - i already mentioned
Harron - since most heroes activation damage is atleast 40 damage every activation then if harron only hit units then he will give atleast 25 direct damage to opponent. (or 5 each unit) 15 for distroying the units + 25 direct damage then total 40.
Ku-luo / Jasser - Units they hit will turn to Earth/Muds (since they are green, nature in theme) for one turn ( same like frozen unit effects and - 2hp to mudded units also )
Wakai - already mentioned above - destroy color units will give +5 damage opponent hero of the same color.
Liu - if not hitting a hero, he will gain hp equal to hp of unit destroyed.

Will park for now. Later as i visit this thread again i will give some other thoughts. Happy gaming everyone!

11-27-2016, 09:01 AM
Ok I will explain more about heroes like Karg etc. They are not broken only because they are useless after 1st use but they are broken because they do often too much dmg. Karg will one shot often horizontal hero, harron vertical, horris or konil will destroy you as surprise if you stack. Its like hero who can be activated only once but do 1 mln dmg. Its bad imo. My point is, if there will be free moves for them they will be Nerfed a lot. Especially with dmg.

Karg Harron less dmg and horis hitting only 1 hero etc.

I want with that change to make heroes useful but prevent one shot or surprise destroying because that is wrong.

11-27-2016, 11:51 AM
Thanks Ravandel you have made quite some observations here. Personaly I do have a suggestion from a different angle. That is, maybe the dev should stop making endless modifications to heroes and simply increase the overal player hp. I believe we have all been in the situation that our opponent is playing god. For example, I met two guys yesterday, one used Torr and the bear hammered me three times in one round. The other used Saru and the monkey debuffed my deck three times in one round. In either case, my chance of winning faded away. This is frustrating enough. However, if the player hp is increased by 1.5x or even 2x, we can still have chances to rally and fight back. I think this is simple and better than making constant modifications to heroes. Furthermore, when player's hp is increased, the dev can vary the conditions for winning at the same time. My suggestion is we can have 3 kinds of winning conditions. 1, winning by destroying our opponent's overall hp, just like the old way. 2, winning by destroying all oppoent's cards. 3, set a limited number of turns for one battle, say, 12 or 15 turns. When the deadline is reached, win and loss are detremined by the remaining player's hp + remaing heroes' hp(if there are any heroes left). if the hp on both sides are the same, then the fight is a draw and both sides gain +0 score. I would say it is very rare to reach a draw. What do you think?

11-27-2016, 11:55 AM
I forgot to say if we can win by destroying our opponent's deck, then the one-hit heroes like karg will become important again.

11-27-2016, 03:01 PM
I though and proposed someagere increasing heroes hp also. But i dont think its enough. Your heroes can be destroyed by rng and you just wait 2 more turns for losing.

It might be nice addition along with balancing tho.

08-29-2017, 02:32 PM
bump (old ideas)