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gWorldz
04-10-2017, 10:20 AM
http://i68.tinypic.com/20zutrs.jpg

This thread is for discussing Season 15's unbalanced heroes and reworking their design to fix the problems. Please post with your ideas, as well as, the problem and include why and how your proposed changes can solve the issues.

When posting please try to be concise and use language we can all understand. Don't use this thread to whine and complain, use it instead to contribute to the conversation and help solve the problems ;)


April 10, 2017

Latest Balance Update: http://forums.kobojo.com/showthread.php?16225-10-04-BALANCE-UPDATE

Note: Lion and Phoenix League players always have their ELO reset back to 1100 at the end of each season.

NickWilde
04-10-2017, 10:23 AM
How about double the gague of Saal? ;)

ENGLISH VERSION:http://forums.kobojo.com/showthread.php?16225-10-04-BALANCE-UPDATE

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-10-2017, 11:04 AM
Maybe a small damage buff battle cry to Nei Li because her gauge is higher than Hembla and Hembala can already do so much more than her

Knightified
04-10-2017, 01:18 PM
How about double the gague of Saal? ;)

I wouldn't say to double it, but it definitely needs a huge raise. Maybe x1.5 what it is currently?

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-10-2017, 02:01 PM
I wouldn't say to double it, but it definitely needs a huge raise. Maybe x1.5 what it is currently?

I don't think so, maybe make Saal's overcharge ability have a limit of like 50 gauge charge

NickWilde
04-10-2017, 02:33 PM
I wouldn't say to double it, but it definitely needs a huge raise. Maybe x1.5 what it is currently?

it's hyperbole, a kind of rhetoric :)

Estefan Rodriguez
04-10-2017, 05:48 PM
Saal definitely needs a increase to his primal gauge....thats all im seeing in ranked, saal and hembala, once they come out your nearly locked, especially if you get unit trolled...

Meo
04-10-2017, 10:04 PM
Saal is annoying and should have a bit of an increase in gauge. Double the gauge or 1.5x is too much though cause that would make him 108/144 and lets face it, the guy is easy to kill taking up 3 tiles and more of an annoyance than anything. Change his gauge to about 85-90 and I think he'd be fine. He's also useless if you have an empty gauge.

Waru...delete his battlecry.

I don't even recognize Hembala anymore from how he originally was. No direct damage, no slowing down gauge (both were his ability) now he only does -18 to gauge. Useless if you activate him on your first turn cause there is no gauge to decrease. Just sad.

Knightified
04-11-2017, 12:48 AM
I think Hembala shouldn't remove gauge at all, but rather be reworked to do full on damage again. He would deal direct damage to enemy commander, deal damage to all enemy heroes both on and off the field, and (here comes to Idea part) place a two turn bleeding effect on the enemy heroes. Bleeding would be similar to poison in how it deals damage over time.

Hembala's gauge (assuming this rework becomes reality) would obviously need to be discussed. It would need to be in the upper 90's low 100's range imo.

And yeah, Waru's battlecry has got to go. Much too overpowered for a common when played correctly.

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-11-2017, 01:53 PM
I think Hembala shouldn't remove gauge at all, but rather be reworked to do full on damage again. He would deal direct damage to enemy commander, deal damage to all enemy heroes both on and off the field, and (here comes to Idea part) place a two turn bleeding effect on the enemy heroes. Bleeding would be similar to poison in how it deals damage over time.

Hembala's gauge (assuming this rework becomes reality) would obviously need to be discussed. It would need to be in the upper 90's low 100's range imo.

And yeah, Waru's battlecry has got to go. Much too overpowered for a common when played correctly.

If Hembala can't remove gauge, healers would be too OP and Hembala is fragile and always gets killed by direct damage heores easily so this nerf isn't necessary

Knightified
04-11-2017, 04:03 PM
If Hembala can't remove gauge, healers would be too OP and Hembala is fragile and always gets killed by direct damage heores easily so this nerf isn't necessary

That statement implies that "healer heroes" (I assume you mean Kishu, Mori, etc.) are only countered by heroes that can drain gauge (so Hembala and Saal). That's incredibly false. Pyk, Saru, "Healer Heroes" of your own, Gwenn, Komeul, etc. They can all counter "hero healers."

But yeah, Hembala has to be fairly easy to kill to balance out his ability, especially if it was redesigned to the ability I proposed. However, a two-tile ~200 health hero is quite hard to kill when protected / placed correctly.

Meo
04-11-2017, 05:15 PM
I think Hembala shouldn't remove gauge at all, but rather be reworked to do full on damage again. He would deal direct damage to enemy commander, deal damage to all enemy heroes both on and off the field, and (here comes to Idea part) place a two turn bleeding effect on the enemy heroes. Bleeding would be similar to poison in how it deals damage over time.

Hembala's gauge (assuming this rework becomes reality) would obviously need to be discussed. It would need to be in the upper 90's low 100's range imo.

90-100 gauge for Hembala is too much.

The current Hembala is by no means OP (except when partnered up with say...Saal and maybe Mirga). I don't like his current ability because decrease in activation speed was what made him awesome. He's so boring now. Before you had to use some thought as to when you used him. You didn't want to use him when your opponent's heroes gauge were full and esp. not when it was a hero that could be repositioned to kill him (i.e. Karg).

Now there's like zero thought as to when you should use him. You just use him whenever and hope you can reactivate him. They never should have touched him.

EDIT: I like heroes that requires some thought / limitation to them. Like Waru, he's always fun deciding if you should use him or not. Likewise that's why I'm not a fan of Kishu, who's basically all reward and zero risk.

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-11-2017, 05:22 PM
That statement implies that "healer heroes" (I assume you mean Kishu, Mori, etc.) are only countered by heroes that can drain gauge (so Hembala and Saal). That's incredibly false. Pyk, Saru, "Healer Heroes" of your own, Gwenn, Komeul, etc. They can all counter "hero healers."

But yeah, Hembala has to be fairly easy to kill to balance out his ability, especially if it was redesigned to the ability I proposed. However, a two-tile ~200 health hero is quite hard to kill when protected / placed correctly.

He is actually already easy to kill but some opponents tend to ignore him which result in a free win for me

Meo
04-11-2017, 05:30 PM
No one ignores Hembala unless they have tank life heroes like...Ken-Uh, Marraar, Shi, etc.

And let me address your problems with healers (since we are here). It's your team was made of all legendaries. Legendary have big gauge and no ability to fight against healed tiles. I could activate my Borg/Sokal 3 times before you can activate Ned. And by the time you activate Ned, I got enough healed tiles to block his attack.

Healers are weak against icers (Gwenn/Missar), blockers (Pyk/Stortan), other healers.

Skunkix
04-11-2017, 08:12 PM
He is actually already easy to kill but some opponents tend to ignore him which result in a free win for me

What kind of player igonres a glass canon hero?

NickWilde
04-12-2017, 02:02 AM
KBJ:Saal太强了,让我们来削弱Hembala吧


http://wx3.sinaimg.cn/mw690/005JQRxvly1fejlylycquj306c04d0tp.jpg

Skunkix
04-12-2017, 07:08 AM
Hembala needed a nerf.

smilesnow
04-12-2017, 08:38 AM
I think they intend Hembala to be a different type of hero compared to Noren/Ned. He is supposed to have the ability of battle field control and dealing medium damage. The problem now is he not only controls the battlefield but also delivers too much damage. However, if we remove the control and increase the damage we would get a yellow version of Noren. Personally I would say we can nerf his control ability and let the damage output stay the same. For example, 50% chance of either sending a hero (gauge not full) back to deck or draining a small portion of energy from a hero (gauge full). So he doesn't controls the entire battlefield. Or we can simply change his battle cry to death rattle;)

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-12-2017, 06:45 PM
No one ignores Hembala unless they have tank life heroes like...Ken-Uh, Marraar, Shi, etc.

And let me address your problems with healers (since we are here). It's your team was made of all legendaries. Legendary have big gauge and no ability to fight against healed tiles. I could activate my Borg/Sokal 3 times before you can activate Ned. And by the time you activate Ned, I got enough healed tiles to block his attack.

Healers are weak against icers (Gwenn/Missar), blockers (Pyk/Stortan), other healers.

My deck highly depends on combos but come to think of it, maybe we need a new Legendary card that has a fast gauge but weker stats compared to all Legendaries, that may be fun

Gavalos
04-13-2017, 07:34 PM
I think they effed up with nerfing Hembala. Rather than taking suggestions (some good ones)of other community members on here, they for some reason went full Rtard and went another route. It's because of this, Saal and Hembala are a nightmare if they connect first successfully. It's not like I care too much about the duo but you have to wonder why they went this route. Of most games out there this is not the hardest one to balance

gWorldz
04-13-2017, 07:56 PM
I think they effed up with nerfing Hembala. Rather than taking suggestions (some good ones)of other community members on here, they for some reason went full Rtard and went another route. It's because of this, Saal and Hembala are a nightmare if they connect first successfully. It's not like I care too much about the duo but you have to wonder why they went this route. Of most games out there this is not the hardest one to balance
It was actually much worse before, Hembala was reducing the activation *AND* reducing the amount received from matches. That was usually much more of a reduction than there is now unless I'm mistaken. Consider this if your hero was fully charged and got the -15 and -20% to activate that is actually -18 (equal to the current version) but if your hero was Hiru with no charge, even though he charges fast, that can turn into -21+ and for heroes that have an even larger gauge it can get crazy.

What complicated old Hembala even more making him even worse was when heroes are sent to the side they naturally charge at half the rate. This change no matter how minor is still a move in the right direction, we just need to continue the conversation *AND* re-evaluate the hero based on his current version noting whats improved and what still needs to improve ...
;)

Understanding that the previous version had an exponential effect like that was overlooked by many of us but I think Kobojo made their decision with that in mind. I support their decision but I agree its not enough to correct the Hembala problems, perhaps your focus is on the wrong hero though and Saal needs some adjusting ... thats where I'd focus to be honest, I think Saal needs a reduction in power or a bigger gauge to balance.

Meo
04-13-2017, 08:56 PM
Saal needs and increase in gauge. If you activate him before you opponent summons a hero, it will make it a very tough battle (for your opponent).

But I don't think a reduction in power is the plan. Cause Saal himself isn't hard to kill, it's just hard to summon the hero to kill him when he's constantly decreasing your gauge.

gWorldz
04-13-2017, 09:13 PM
Saal needs and increase in gauge. If you activate him before you opponent summons a hero, it will make it a very tough battle (for your opponent).

But I don't think a reduction in power is the plan. Cause Saal himself isn't hard to kill, it's just hard to summon the hero to kill him when he's constantly decreasing your gauge.

I agree, the gauge increase was my preferred solution also, but either would be satisfactory to me mostly because a Saal nerfing is a good thing no matter how he's nerfed o.O

Saal has a legendary feel to him rather than an epic at this point and when combined with almost any build he can be devastating. Saal + Hembala is horrible but so is Saal + Krys or Kishu or Maarrar or Mori or Masha or Erys or Ned or Drall or almost every other hero you might find in your barracks now or in the future -_-

Meo
04-13-2017, 11:14 PM
I agree, the gauge increase was my preferred solution also, but either would be satisfactory to me mostly because a Saal nerfing is a good thing no matter how he's nerfed o.O

Saal has a legendary feel to him rather than an epic at this point and when combined with almost any build he can be devastating. Saal + Hembala is horrible but so is Saal + Krys or Kishu or Maarrar or Mori or Masha or Erys or Ned or Drall or almost every other hero you might find in your barracks now or in the future -_-

The thing with Saal is he by himself is useless that's why I think he's Epic. Even with Erys/static hitters, he's not really that strong because you need to move your hero Konil/Mandra/Horis in order to take down your opponent. In random he could be completely useless.

But with tile-buffers, heroes like Krys, Hembala, etc. he could be so deadly.

That's why I don't want them to nerf him too badly. If they do, then he's another worthless hero.

4552252
04-14-2017, 03:56 AM
DON s info should be more specific like how many max life added to enemy heroes

Knightified
04-14-2017, 03:59 AM
DON s info should be more specific like how many max life added to enemy heroes

I will always support more information being given. :)

Gavalos
04-14-2017, 07:34 AM
I use Kortex (yes I really do) and it would be cool if we could simply lower his activation/invocation cost maybe -5. I know not a lot of peopl use him but I think this would make him mote balanced/usable. That and rework Hembala and Saal just very minor. That's all from me!

gWorldz
04-14-2017, 08:41 AM
I use Kortex (yes I really do) and it would be cool if we could simply lower his activation/invocation cost maybe -5. I know not a lot of peopl use him but I think this would make him mote balanced/usable. That and rework Hembala and Saal just very minor. That's all from me!

I'm not disagreeing with you Kortex can be devastating and manage 140-220 damage possible direct damage to an opponent from a single activation if the rodents he spawned survive all 4 turns. They can do even more damage against an opponent with a buff/heal deck that inadvertantly raises their health. I would like to see his gauge reduced also but knowing how damaging a single rat can be my mind wonders what happens when his gauge is reduced and we can activate him 3 times in a single turn :O_O:

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-14-2017, 02:24 PM
Anyone thinks Missar needs a buff, when he does freezing, he doesn't do damage, had rather take Konil instead of him, perhaps make him do damage all the time

gWorldz
04-14-2017, 02:42 PM
I'll speak for everyone Jason ... we agree and been asking for that going on 9+ seasons now :D

... but I can also understand *maybe* why they haven't changed him, unlike the other heroes that freeze, Missar is high health, almost double the health of the other heroes that freeze at comparable levels. He is also only a rare where as others heroes are Epic or random. He's also fairly well balanced as far as gauge is concerned and is the same size of the other dominate freezers at 2 units. All of this might be why Kobojo considers him balanced ... but we still want the change, cause we greedy lol

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-14-2017, 03:21 PM
I'll speak for everyone Jason ... we agree and been asking for that going on 9+ seasons now :D

... but I can also understand *maybe* why they haven't changed him, unlike the other heroes that freeze, Missar is high health, almost double the health of the other heroes that freeze at comparable levels. He is also only a rare where as others heroes are Epic or random. He's also fairly well balanced as far as gauge is concerned and is the same size of the other dominate freezers at 2 units. All of this might be why Kobojo considers him balanced ... but we still want the change, cause we greedy lol

Well Missar is useless now considering he has the same gauge as Hembala and in most occasion he is very useless, only freezes but doesn't damage even a level 1 Gwenn or Konil can already out beaten a lvl 7 Missar in total of Freezing

Skunkix
04-14-2017, 04:02 PM
Last patch he had a position buff at least

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-14-2017, 05:20 PM
Last patch he had a position buff at least

He is still useless and for some reason 75% of my random match up today has Missar, am I cursed??

Michael Garde
04-14-2017, 10:55 PM
Im liking missar now... I'm not sure if they changed the chance of doing damage but it seems to deliver damage more frequently now.

Michael Garde
04-14-2017, 11:04 PM
I use Kortex (yes I really do) and it would be cool if we could simply lower his activation/invocation cost maybe -5. I know not a lot of peopl use him but I think this would make him mote balanced/usable. That and rework Hembala and Saal just very minor. That's all from me!

Agreed, maybe even more so than 5... I compare him to isiaaki who's gauge is 45. So kortexs gauge shouldn't be that low but definitely should be lower

Knightified
04-14-2017, 11:16 PM
Agreed, maybe even more so than 5... I compare him to isiaaki who's gauge is 45. So kortexs gauge shouldn't be that low but definitely should be lower

Personally I find Kortex to be perfectly fine. He's more of a damage over time dealer and if activated multiple times that damage just keeps on adding up.

Michael Garde
04-14-2017, 11:34 PM
Damage is rather minor unless stacked and given that you can quite easily kill the rats you deliver it lowers his attacking power once again. compared to isiaaki he's weaker. I'm just using that comparison and that at level 7 I haven't really found kortex to be much of an asset to a team, fun to use yes, but I'd rather keep him sidelined as is

Edit: essentially I think of his attacking power somewhere between isiaaki and krys yet his gauge is higher than krys'

Meo
04-15-2017, 05:34 AM
I'm conflicted about Kortex.

He can be devastating if the rats land in the right place. Right behind Pyk or something like that. But more often than not I kill the rats myself. Do you use Jasser if the rats land in a corner? Do you use Shi? Mori will wipe out any rat that lands in the centre or front.

So I agree with a slight decrease in gauge

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-15-2017, 04:18 PM
Kortex is sort of scary because there's literally no way to manually kill the rats

Skunkix
04-15-2017, 05:10 PM
Rats may be moved through the board, at difference of rod bombs. I belive kotex is just fine.

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-15-2017, 06:46 PM
Rats may be moved through the board, at difference of rod bombs. I belive kotex is just fine.

Yes but the higher level Kortex is, the higher health the rats have which will just keep staying on the field while the poison is doing a sluggish job killing them, by the time they die the opponent may already bet like 100 damage+

Skunkix
04-15-2017, 07:47 PM
Just a question. Does poison for rats does proportional life damage or is a exact number. If there is no proportional damage then that may be op.

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-15-2017, 08:20 PM
Just a question. Does poison for rats does proportional life damage or is a exact number. If there is no proportional damage then that may be op.

I think it's exact 12 poison damage

Michael Garde
04-16-2017, 02:15 AM
Just a question. Does poison for rats does proportional life damage or is a exact number. If there is no proportional damage then that may be op.

Op? Nah... Most of the time he rats are taken out simply by cascading before the poison gets them unless they are hidden behind a hero. There's also the benefit that if they get hit than that's points that won't be coming off the players health

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-16-2017, 08:57 AM
Stortan needs a buff, he is so useless compared to all Legendaries, when he does the immunity it just preevents me from letting the opponent to clear the battlefield to have more better upcoming combos, maybe make his battlecry added to his ability

Knightified
04-16-2017, 03:46 PM
Stortan needs a buff, he is so useless compared to all Legendaries, when he does the immunity it just preevents me from letting the opponent to clear the battlefield to have more better upcoming combos, maybe make his battlecry added to his ability

Stortan is fine. His ability is situational like most of the heroes.

Meo
04-18-2017, 05:11 PM
Just a question. Does poison for rats does proportional life damage or is a exact number. If there is no proportional damage then that may be op.

There's no proportion but it's not really OP unless your opponent activates say...Stortan. Cause usually cascades do kill them. If not...sometimes Jasser/Liu/Wakai/Erys/Shi, etc will kill them.


Stortan needs a buff, he is so useless compared to all Legendaries, when he does the immunity it just preevents me from letting the opponent to clear the battlefield to have more better upcoming combos, maybe make his battlecry added to his ability

What do you mean make his battlecry add to his ability? His ability is blocking all tile damage rendering all tile buffers/tile activators (Ned/Gyle/Roku useless). He's weak against freezers like Gwenn/Missar

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-19-2017, 02:53 PM
What do you mean make his battlecry add to his ability? His ability is blocking all tile damage rendering all tile buffers/tile activators (Ned/Gyle/Roku useless). He's weak against freezers like Gwenn/Missar

He is only to counter Healers etc. but everyone run direct damage heroes right now so he is pretty useless

Meo
04-19-2017, 05:55 PM
He is only to counter Healers etc. but everyone run direct damage heroes right now so he is pretty useless

Not really. I always get a variety buffers, tile healers, normal healers, attackers.

gWorldz
04-19-2017, 07:01 PM
Not really. I always get a variety buffers, tile healers, normal healers, attackers.

Yea, I also face a little bit of everything ;)

Most people have grown a backbone these days and play random instead of classic to prove they are skilled and not just meta or lucky. Classic builds are being played less as people realize that format is for kids, no.Obs and unskilled players.

Knightified
04-20-2017, 02:37 AM
Alrighty. I've said most if not all of these recommended changes before but I'll say them again in a nice organized format.

Kishu:
-Needs a gauge increase to minimum of 70. Considering the power of her ability, she is easily the most powerful tile buffer hero. With her current gauge, it's incredibly easy to activate her twice in one turn. It's absolutely devastating, and in my opinion, incredibly OP.

Kishu / Konil:
-These 2 heroes need their death rattles altered to last only a certain amount of turns (I recommend 3. One turn means one players set of moves. The opponents set of moves count as a turn). As it is now, these two heroes are deadly left alive and killed.

Tali:
-Her attack is wayyy too weak. Needs a buff. I know she increases her power if she is revived, but I think most people would rather avoid her dying at all.

Komeul:
-Gauge increase to at least 50. Potential revert to 100% freeze if gauge is increased.

Don / Floyd:
-Increase invocation rate of heroes sent out by Don (or Floyd himself in his case). I'd recommend a 33% increase or something along those lines.

Rod:
-Change the health of the bombs Rod throws to 5.

Waru:
-Remove battlecry. Apply that removed health to his actual main health. More of a punishment if Mr. Assassin dies this way.

Outi:
-Attack entire enemy front row instead of front middle 4 tiles.

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-20-2017, 03:50 PM
Asaro needs some love, he is so hopeless, all he does is just heals himself

Knightified
04-20-2017, 05:51 PM
Asaro needs some love, he is so hopeless, all he does is just heals himself

Asaro's passive is where he really shines. His ability is more to just keep him alive so the passive can continue to work.

Meo
04-20-2017, 05:54 PM
Asaro needs some love, he is so hopeless, all he does is just heals himself

He makes for an exceptional lure...you can't exactly leave the guy alone or his passive will win in a cascade war. I wish he healed a bit more so he could be an Uku magnet.

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-20-2017, 06:13 PM
He makes for an exceptional lure...you can't exactly leave the guy alone or his passive will win in a cascade war. I wish he healed a bit more so he could be an Uku magnet.

I'm still a bit confused of Asaro's stats, does he only increase yellow heroes' damage or the troop's damage??

Knightified
04-20-2017, 07:59 PM
I'm still a bit confused of Asaro's stats, does he only increase yellow heroes' damage or the troop's damage??

Yellow troops. Only yellow troops.

gWorldz
04-20-2017, 08:10 PM
Asaro's self healing and troop boosting balances him well actually especially at lower levels. He tanks for low health heroes and blocks a lot of unit damage.

You ever notice long time and pro players make an effort to take him off the board fast?

That's because over a match he can have a huge impact especially with other yellow and/or buff/heal heroes on their side. Simple 3u matches go from doing 15 damage up to 45 destroying units and clearing the board for even more impact with direct damage but 4u and 5u matches can be devastating. Asaro is like many heroes, his use is dependent on your skill with him and how you use him, used properly he is beast, otherwise he becomes almost a liability. Players that are great with cascades recognize his power quickly, others only recognize it when they are being destroyed by it. Problem is right now there are 4 better yellow heroes to include in mono yellow builds and no ones using him but before Hembala, Asaro was in almost every mono yellow and/or Kishu build.

I think Asaro is well balanced, I wish he did more and I've been wondering about Skunkix impact on him and his passive and how interesting that could be, so I don't think he needs much if any change these days o_O

Knightified
04-20-2017, 11:53 PM
In regards to Skunkix effecting Asaro, currently even if Asaro's color gets changed his passive still effects only yellow troops.

gWorldz
04-21-2017, 12:07 AM
In regards to Skunkix effecting Asaro, currently even if Asaro's color gets changed his passive still effects only yellow troops.

I do hate to hear that :angry:

ProudSpud
04-21-2017, 02:51 AM
It would be cool if Asaro's passive changed depending on his color shift. I can see this becoming beneficial or destructive for either side. Since Skunkix's ability can already turn against you, how much impact would it cause on strategy itself? That is something I want to see.

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-21-2017, 12:22 PM
Tali really needs a buff in damage though, for a gauge of 66 she's so hopeless!!

Walther
04-23-2017, 03:38 PM
imho Tali is good as she is.

Jason Tek Chun Sheng
04-24-2017, 03:11 PM
We need gWorldz now!

gWorldz
04-27-2017, 04:36 AM
I apologize for the delay --'

Please continue the discussion in Season 16's Live Balance Discussion (http://forums.kobojo.com/showthread.php?16286-Live-Balance-Discussion-Season-16) :blush: