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Paulo Carvalho
03-20-2015, 08:01 PM
Alongside Tag Team Attacks, crit is a little too random and makes too much of an impact on the game.

As an example, with me having both crit chance increase and reduced risk of being critically hit, and against opponents that have none of those active, I've gone for fights and fights on a row where I either don't crit, or crit something that was going to die regardless, while the enemies get crits just when they need to one-shot my mutants.
Sure, it's the nature of randomness, but it creates way too much of a fluctuation in the outcome of battle, to the point that it trumps strategy almost entirely.

Here are possible solutions:
1 - Double the base crit chance and halve the amount of extra damage crits give you.
So instead of doing 100%+ damage on crit, you only do 50% more, but you crit twice as often, resulting in the same damage over time, but less lucky one-shots and less praying to RNGesus.
2 - Change Crit Risk Reduction Boost to Crit Resilience Boost, reducing the effect of crits on you by a small amount, like 10%, instead of reducing the chance of being crit.

ZettaX
03-20-2015, 08:45 PM
If you double the crit chance and halve the amount of extra damage you won't get them twice as often. It'll just have twice as much chance of happening each time you attack, so you'll end up with nearly the same amount of crits with less damage.

Matthew Sherry
03-20-2015, 09:18 PM
Does anyone else feel the Crit system is biased towards fast and spread attack mutants? Faster mutants hit more so they get more crit triggers, spread mutants get x3 crit triggers at once. Fast mutants should have a lower crit chance based on speed and spread mutants should get 66% less chance to crit. Watching a Buranka get 2 crits in one attack is beyond insane.

Also I should know this but I can't remember, do tag mutants get crits? If they do that should be disabled. In fact crits should just be disabled in PvP all together.

ZettaX
03-20-2015, 09:26 PM
Does anyone else feel the Crit system is biased towards fast and spread attack mutants? Faster mutants hit more so they get more crit triggers, spread mutants get x3 crit triggers at once. Fast mutants should have a lower crit chance based on speed and spread mutants should get 66% less chance to crit. Watching a Buranka get 2 crits in one attack is beyond insane.

Also I should know this but I can't remember, do tag mutants get crits? If they do that should be disabled. In fact crits should just be disabled in PvP all together.

I'm positive Tags do get crits.

Paulo Carvalho
03-21-2015, 12:29 AM
If you double the crit chance and halve the amount of extra damage you won't get them twice as often. It'll just have twice as much chance of happening each time you attack, so you'll end up with nearly the same amount of crits with less damage.

Sorry but this doesn't make sense to me.
Sure I cannot crit 3 times in 2 attacks, but what does that have to do with chance?

If you have a 20% chance to crit for +100% damage, and your damage is 100 by default, after 10 attacks you should get on average around 2 crits for a total of around 1200 damage (8x100 + 2x200).

If you instead have 40% chance to crit for +50% damage, and your damage is 100 by default, after 10 attacks you should get on average around 4 crits for a total damage of around 1200 damage (6x100 + 4x150).

The worst case scenario (no crits) doesn't change, but is less likely to occur at 40% chance to crit than at 20% chance.
The average scenario doesn't change significantly, but it does reduce the amount of one-shots in the game.
The best case scenario (all crits) is more likely to occur but less devastating if it does, reducing the impact of RNG on the outcome.

And yes, I've been crit by a Tag Team Attack when the fastest Mutant in the fight called Britney Spears' to one-shot my whole team with her AoE.

I do not recall, however, if the Mutant that called her also critted - so I have no basis for assuming whether the Tag Team Attack has an independent crit trigger - if it always crits when the attacker does and vice-versa.

ZettaX
03-21-2015, 01:43 AM
Yes, but I don't think the odds of landing a critical right now are 20%, I think it's actually lower (not sure, really), so doubling the chance won't do much to help those odds, while you'll get half the damage each crit.

IMHO, crit's fine as it is.


EDIT: Anyone knows the exact crit chance?

Paulo Carvalho
03-21-2015, 03:32 AM
Yes, but I don't think the odds of landing a critical right now are 20%, I think it's actually lower (not sure, really), so doubling the chance won't do much to help those odds, while you'll get half the damage each crit.

IMHO, crit's fine as it is.


EDIT: Anyone knows the exact crit chance?

You know you are mathematically incorrect, right?
As in, black and white. No buts. No ifs.

If you have twice the base chance - whether we currently have 1% or 10% or 20% - it means you will see - on average - twice the amount of attacks crit.

This automatically means there will be a smaller fluctuation in results.
Less extreme luck because everyone will more consistently crit, but crit for less.

This means that while on average the damage output will be the same throughout the fight, it will be less likely that a single lucky crit (or unlucky lack of crit) at the beginning will determine the outcome of the whole fight.

Whether the current chance is very low or not has no impact on the value of the crit damage.
The low chance + high damage merely causes you to win or lose due to luck.

ZettaX
03-21-2015, 03:55 AM
Yes, I wasn't talking mathematically.
If you have 0.001% chance of winning the lottery (which are pretty good odds, actually. Huh.) and you double it, you won't notice a big increase on the "amount of times you win", because the chance is so slim. That's what I meant to say. I know that by doubling the chances you "SHOULD be getting twice as many crits".
There's a box. A box that's got written on it something like "you've 1% of getting the best prize available!". You could open it 200 times and still get no "best prize". That's "chance" for you, that's all I'm saying. There's no guarantee you'll get one if you open a hundred.

Try flipping a coin 20 times, see if you get 10 heads and 10 tails. The odds are, mathematically, 50/50, but it'll rarely go that way as an average.

God I suck at explaining things.

Paulo Carvalho
03-21-2015, 04:05 AM
Yes, I wasn't talking mathematically.
If you have 0.001% chance of winning the lottery (which are pretty good odds, actually. Huh.) and you double it, you won't notice a big increase on the "amount of times you win", because the chance is so slim. That's what I meant to say. I know that by doubling the chances you "SHOULD be getting twice as many crits".
There's a box. A box that's got written on it something like "you've 1% of getting the best prize available!". You could open it 200 times and still get no "best prize". That's "chance" for you, that's all I'm saying. There's no guarantee you'll get one if you open a hundred.

Try flipping a coin 20 times, see if you get 10 heads and 10 tails. The odds are, mathematically, 50/50, but it'll rarely go that way as an average.

Somewhere in your thought process you seem to have completely forgotten the context of my suggestion.

Lottery is a terrible example because there is no premise of balance in it, and winning it is beyond rare.

Crits are very common.
They just happen to be too strong, and their chance is low enough that you cannot reasonably expect one to occur, and when it does it completely turns the fight around.

By lowering their damage and increasing their chances, you reduce the oscillation in results, as the likelyhood of it happening and not happening are closer to each other, while their effect is also less devastating.
This means they're likely to happen, if they happen it's not as devastating, and if they don't happen it's not a complete loss.

And I'm pretty sure crits are about 10% chance or more.

But to indulge your logic, compare flipping a coin 20 times, to rolling a 6-sided die 60 times.
Which is easier to get: 10 times heads or 10 times 6?
(PS: I'm not talking about average, but practically speaking, with no tricks or manipulation involved)

ZettaX
03-21-2015, 04:15 AM
Sadly I still find the crit damage/chance fine as it is, I'm used to crits being devastating on RPGs and what not. Still, I like your second solution, the anti-crit shield making crits x% less powerful.

Paulo Carvalho
03-21-2015, 04:26 AM
I think +50% damage is still pretty devastating, specially when combined with a Strong or Brutal attack.

Currently, due to the low odds, it's very random, and so you often get fights where player A has both boosts and gets 0 crits, while player B has no boosts and gets 3 crits.

When crits are as strong as they currently are, combined with Strong and Brutal attacks, you see fights decided in the first attack or two.

David Deal
03-21-2015, 05:17 AM
My only issue is that the crit is decided before the ai selects it's target. This makes the ai waaaaay better as they know what mutant to target to one shot, same when the crit is on the tag. Also they know the exact damage of the tag.


They need to change tag icons from profile pictures to the tag avatars, they need to change the crit calculation to be after ai target selection and then it'll be a bit more fair imho.

Matthew Sherry
03-21-2015, 11:40 AM
What if they disabled crits for Brutal +50% attacks and made it so that a crit always adds up to +50%? You get Normal +0% damage and a crit adds +50%, you get Strong +25% damage and a crit adds +25% and so on. That would make it more balanced, you'd still have high damage but it wouldn't be the insane 1 shotting a Dezinger high damage.

Paulo Carvalho
03-21-2015, 04:18 PM
I don't think that's fair, Matthew.
Part of the game's purpose is trying to pick a team that covers a good deal of situations.

If all your characters take brutal attacks from the enemy team it's your fault, as you can avoid that when deciding what team to use to attack.

With my suggestion, a crit is 1.5x, and since a brutal attack is also 1.5x, you take 1.5x the original damage, and then multiply it by 1.5x again = 1.5x1.5 = 2.25x damage.

Currently, a brutal crit is 3x damage, so I think my suggestion is pretty reasonable while allowing crits to still feel powerful.

Matthew Sherry
03-21-2015, 04:52 PM
I don't think that's fair, Matthew.
Part of the game's purpose is trying to pick a team that covers a good deal of situations.

If all your characters take brutal attacks from the enemy team it's your fault, as you can avoid that when deciding what team to use to attack.

With my suggestion, a crit is 1.5x, and since a brutal attack is also 1.5x, you take 1.5x the original damage, and then multiply it by 1.5x again = 1.5x1.5 = 2.25x damage.

Currently, a brutal crit is 3x damage, so I think my suggestion is pretty reasonable while allowing crits to still feel powerful.

No a crit doubles the damage from what I've seen. I watched my Dezinger hit for Brutal @ 5200~ then get a crit for over 10k. Whats not fair is making the effort to build a good defense team or make the best choice possible for an offense team and watching one of their speed 5~ mutants get a crit at the start of the match and losing one of your mutants instantly. Then the next attack calls in their tag. Then you loose. All because of RNG. Normaly +50% damage isn't going to 1 shot a mutant unless it's coming from something speed 3.47 or slower. Currently and with your system a crit will probably kill everytime from a speed 5 or lower mutant. What I suggested is the most fair because all thats happening is every so often you get a bit more damage to help swing the match in your favor, not an instant kill. They just shouldn't be in the game to begin with, it's not a fun mechanic when you have PvP with rewards and PVE that you can only do a limited amount of times per day.

Paulo Carvalho
03-22-2015, 01:48 AM
I know crit doubles damage.
I said a "brutal" crit is 3x damage (2 x 1.5)- Brutal being the strongest type of advantage (example: Saber vs Demon),
A "strong" crit is 2.5x damage (2 x 1.25)- Strong being the second strongest type of advantage (example: Saber vs Necro).

I'm suggesting that crits should multiply by 1.5x instead of 2x.
So a Strong crit would be 1.875x (1.5x1.25) and a Brutal crit would be 2.25x (1.5x1.5).

My suggestion makes crits occur more frequently but also less powerful, which is a compromise between the current state of the game and your suggestion.