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View Full Version : [Suggestion] Balancing: Retaliate & Wound



Paulo Carvalho
03-27-2015, 07:14 PM
Retaliate and Wound are extremely unfair due to how they scale with your own Speed.

This means a fast attacker will kill himself hitting a slow Mutant who has Retaliate...
...it also means a fast attacker will bleed to death due to frequent damage from Wound.
...while a slow attacker will laugh at the tickles of both Retaliate and Wound applied by a fast Mutant.

Even if Retaliate and Wound is meant to counter fast attackers, it shouldn't also penalize Mutants who apply those effects just because they're fast...

So there are two ways to do this:

Suggestion #1 - My favorite:
Retaliate and Wound should not scale with your speed - it should scale with the attacker's speed.
This way a slow Mutant will take more damage per hit from Retaliate and Wound than a fast Mutant will - but both will take the same amount of damage overall.

So assuming 2 Mutant types:
Mutant A has 100 attack and 10 speed (1000 strength divided by 10 speed)
Mutant B has 300 attack and 4 speed (1200 strength divided by 4 speed)
I'm giving Mutant B more strength than it should, just to make it clear where the strength and speed come from when calculating damage below.

If they have Retaliate (15% of attack):
Currently:
- A attacks B and takes 45 (15% of 300) damage from Retaliate.
- B attacks A and takes 15 (15% of 100) damage from Retaliate.
- A attacks 2.5x faster than B, so takes 2.5x as much damage from Retaliate over time, which means after B attacks twice and takes 2x15=30 damage, A attacks 5 times and takes 5x45=225.
With my suggestion:
- A attacks B and takes 18 = 15% of 120 (B's 1200 strength divided by A's 10 speed).
- A attacks A and takes 15 = 15% of 100 (A's 1000 strength divided by A's 10 speed).
- B attacks A and takes 37,5 = 15% of 250 (A's 1000 strength divided by B's 4 speed).
- B attacks B and takes 45 = 15% of 300 (B's 1200 strength divided by B's 4 speed).

The same applies to Wound, except Wound is 33% instead of 15%.

Suggestion #2 - In case Fast attackers are meant to be countered by Retaliate/Wound:
Make the damage of Retaliate based off a global speed value, like 5.

So assuming the two mutants above:
- A would have a Retaliate of 15% of 1000 divided by 5 = 15% of 200 = 30.
- B would have a Relaliate of 15% of 1200 divided by 5 = 15% of 240 = 36.

Matthew Sherry
03-28-2015, 02:28 AM
Except at level 25 Retaliate goes from 15% to 25% and Wound goes from 20% to 30%(I think). Honestly PvP is overrun with fast mutants so anything that gives slower mutants more of a chance is fine by me. I haven't seen any real issues. Also abilities are affected by strengths and weaknesses so if a Zoo attacks a Saber the Retaliate damage is only going to be 50% of what it normally would be so that's fine. It's Bleed that might be an issue because then you go from 30% Bleed to 45%, but again that's only if the slower mutant actually gets to attack which it probably wont' since those mutants are the first to go in PvP. The system seems fine for now. Retaliate even got a nerf recently.

Paulo Carvalho
03-28-2015, 04:22 AM
Except at level 25 Retaliate goes from 15% to 25% and Wound goes from 20% to 30%(I think). Honestly PvP is overrun with fast mutants so anything that gives slower mutants more of a chance is fine by me. I haven't seen any real issues. Also abilities are affected by strengths and weaknesses so if a Zoo attacks a Saber the Retaliate damage is only going to be 50% of what it normally would be so that's fine. It's Bleed that might be an issue because then you go from 30% Bleed to 45%, but again that's only if the slower mutant actually gets to attack which it probably wont' since those mutants are the first to go in PvP. The system seems fine for now. Retaliate even got a nerf recently.

First, slow mutants can one-shot most fast mutants, and the opposite isn't exactly true.

What does it matter if you play first with your 3 mutants and manage to kill 1 of the slow mutants before they get to play, if the remaining 2 mutants one-shot 2 of yours?

Second, why does it matter whether fast attackers are popular or not?
I'm talking about genes being unbalanced.
There are fast attackers of other genes, you know?
The current state of Retaliate just excessively punishes fast Saber & Zoomorph.

Here are some facts:
- Fast mutants with Retaliate suck. It hits like a wet noodle.
- Fast mutants with Wound suck. It hits like a wet noodle & it doesn't stack (and if you're really fast, hitting different enemies with each attack is stupid).
- Fast mutants hitting a slow Mutant who has Retaliate are raped.
- Fast mutants Wounded by a slow Mutant are raped.

Cyber also suffers a little because Absorb doesn't stack.

There's no real point to Absorb not stacking.
It's weaker than Life Drain, its only advantage being that it helps prevent damage.
That only matters on the first attack IF you're the faster Mutant.

It get it that Absorb benefits Mutants that have above average speed, while Life Drain is meant for slow mutants, but they're not terrible otherwise.
Retaliate and Wound, however, are extremely affected by speed on BOTH sides - the defender and the attacker.

They should make Retaliate and Wound at least use a global speed modifier.